2/23/10: Knicks @ Celtics

[UConn Celtics Fan]

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010
7:30 PM Eastern

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Boston, Massachusetts

Rajon Rondo PG Sergio Rodriguez
Ray Allen SG Tracey McGrady
Marquis Daniels SF Wilson Chandler
Kevin Garnett PF Danilo Gallinari
Kendrick Perkins C David Lee

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[NorEaster]

So far so good looks to be a 'cruise control' type of game for the C's.

[Bogg]

Celts look downright bad after the first quarter until now(midway through the third). It almost seems like we can hang with any team in the league but we're no longer able to blow anyone out at this point.

[NorEaster]

It has to be a mental thing and just pure laziness. Our defense went to crap and the only reason is the C's got lazy. The Knicks were hamerrin Perk on the pic and roll. A sloppy win over a bad team.

[LordRC]

If a healthy Paul played, this game wouldn't had been close. But with the thumb injury affecting his shooting and suffering from flu-like symptoms, he stayed at home. Marquis did a great job defending McGrady for the night while scoring a very quiet 14 points. 29 points from the bench ain't bad, but it would be better whem Daniels is part of the second unit.

Interesting to see Bill Walker do some good things with a little playing time. Every once and a while I'll take a peek to see if he's doing any good with the Knicks. If he is, then he's another young player shoved to the end of the bench by Doc, with little chance to develop. I'm sure Marcus Landry is looking forward to practice with no reward of playing.

Rough debut for Nate, but he will have better nights. He needs a little time to get comfortable, that's all.

--LordRC

[CaptChris]

RC: Better to have PP, than not to have him. Problem is that his game has slipped this year like many others. Shooting well, expecially "3" 's. Rebounding down -- especially crappy on the "O" board.. -- .50 a game. He is now 9th in SF in Eff. 17.78 and 8th in Per at 17.62. All down. Not the Best Player in the League bit.

[CaptChris]

Rebounding looked terrible. Perk is supposed to be the man. Not so lately. Great game on the boards against the Lakers - 14 Rebs., but only getting 5 a game for the other 9 games in Feb.. BB is getting as many "O" rebs. as Perk, and Garnet is getting more "D" Rebs. . Faster guys are killikng him on the P&R. Rondo had a great over-all game on the "O", but gets killed by the stronger PG's. He doesn't play them straight up, shading looking for the steal, and they go right by him or run him off the picks.

Tommy said that Rasheed had it made. Get down to 5 ft. from the basket,becasue they had Walker guarding him. 4 plays in a row on the Pick & Roll Rasheed changed it to the Pick & Pop so ae could shott the "3". He stayed 24 ft. from the basket on most of the "O" plays. The tallest guy on the court, playing like the smallest. OUCH!

[nepg]

Interesting to see Bill Walker do some good things with a little playing time. Every once and a while I'll take a peek to see if he's doing any good with the Knicks. If he is, then he's another young player shoved to the end of the bench by Doc, with little chance to develop. I'm sure Marcus Landry is looking forward to practice with no reward of playing.

Rough debut for Nate, but he will have better nights. He needs a little time to get comfortable, that's all.

--LordRC

I'll never understand the Bill Walker benching. This wasn't just some one-trick pony coming out of college, the guy had a legitimate all-around game. He plays good defense, he can shoot the mid-range shot, and he can drive to the basket. The guy was the ideal bench player behind Paul Pierce with potential to replace The Truth. He was the perfect draft pick for them, and it was a miracle he fell that far.

Sends me back to 2006 when Doc refused to let the young guys play through rough patches or in a real rotation.

[Bogg]

I'll never understand the Bill Walker benching. This wasn't just some one-trick pony coming out of college, the guy had a legitimate all-around game. He plays good defense, he can shoot the mid-range shot, and he can drive to the basket. The guy was the ideal bench player behind Paul Pierce with potential to replace The Truth.

He wasn't one of those 2006 guys who just didn't have any direction (those guys only had no direction because they played for Doc).

Whoa whoa whoa, Bill Walker could have made a good bench player for us if given enough playing time, maybe, but let's not starting throwing around Pierce's name for dramatic effect. This season and last Walker's barely done in the NBDL what Pierce was doing in the NBA at the same age. Let's not go crazy because Walker got a pair of dunks and went 1-3 from three, he also managed to pick up 4 fouls in 13 minutes. Say he could have replaced Tony Allen if we gave him a shot, sure, but lets wait until he breaks double-digits in an NBA game before we say he could have replaced Pierce at some point.

[CBForThree]

Rebounding looked terrible. Perk is supposed to be the man. Not so lately. Great game on the boards against the Lakers - 14 Rebs., but only getting 5 a game for the other 9 games in Feb.. BB is getting as many "O" rebs. as Perk, and Garnet is getting more "D" Rebs. . Faster guys are killikng him on the P&R. Rondo had a great over-all game on the "O", but gets killed by the stronger PG's. He doesn't play them straight up, shading looking for the steal, and they go right by him or run him off the picks.

Tommy said that Rasheed had it made. Get down to 5 ft. from the basket,becasue they had Walker guarding him. 4 plays in a row on the Pick & Roll Rasheed changed it to the Pick & Pop so ae could shott the "3". He stayed 24 ft. from the basket on most of the "O" plays. The tallest guy on the court, playing like the smallest. OUCH!

Where the hell was Eddie crashing the boards like a big man the whole time he was in green? (and yeah, embarrassing moment for Perk that they canceled each other out in that stat line)

Part of me hoped he'd intentionally screw the pooch despite his friendly history with D'Antoni to force a waive and come back through the back door after 30 days. Alas, he looks to be hustling. Ditto Walker (stupid giveaway of a homegrown project). Some people appreciate minutes - who knew?

The ill-advised shots from Davis with plenty of clock left bother me a lot more than Sheed's 3s. Sheed's always been in denial about being a big...he can play low, it's just not as comfortable as the perimeter for him. We knew that going into the deal. What we didn't know is that BBD would still be making wrong decisions (and not just off the mark, but off the target board altogether) night after night three years deep. Being eclipsed by TA, who's even worse, is the only reason he doesn't stick out. The guarded optimism over Nate would be far more guiltless if it had been those two knuckleheads instead of a role player who understood the schemes and two promising colts. But of course Doc has a soft spot for both so we knew that wasn't happening...

[texascelticsfan]

New York was abusing the Help Defense in the Pick and Roll, which made it look like Perk was the fall guy. His role was to switch/help on the guy with the ball and the PF is supposed to help by covering the rolling man going towards the bucket. Scalabrine was actually doing a better job than Perk as he's quick enough to recover and get to the bucket, Perk/most Centers just arent that fast, particularly while covering a PF (lee). Of course Scalabrine's strong D was rewarded with a spot on the Bench so Big Belly could do his "defensive" masterwork, because you know Doc rewards Defense?

On rebounding, by having Perk/KG out on the arc defending the Pick & Roll, they are out of position on rebounding, leaving the rebounding to the little guys.

[CaptChris]

TCF: Give me a break. When Perk does well it is HIS GOOD PLAY, not the TEAMS or the SCHEMES! When he gets TORCHED, it is because of the SCHEME.

He is ranked 28th in the league as a rebounderat 8.0.. 48th as an "O" rebounderat 2.0. It is at the "O" end that disappoints me. He is one and done.

[CaptChris]

TCF: Check out our future opponents. I hope! Clevland -- Orlando -- Lakers. They rank right up there on the "D" stats, Cleveland is right next to us, yet leads the league in rebounding. Yet, they can all rebound the ball as well.

Maybe we should modify the "D", so that the midgets don't have to rebound all by themselves. Same as the "accepted crap" about Rasheed's play. It is insane to have a guy his size 24 ft. away, on both the "O" and the "D".

[nepg]

Having Rasheed outside makes sense as long as they have another rebounder in the game. Theoretically, this spreads out the opposing defense and opens lanes for Pierce, the Allens, Rondo, and now Robinson to drive. The problem is that they pair Sheed with Big Baby instead of running a small line-up with no big or running Sheed with KG or Perk. If Wallace can hit his 3's at a ~33% clip, the Celtics are near impossible to stop.

Unfortunately, they've had injuries and Doc's rotation has been garbage recently. The only time Big Baby should be on the floor is if Perk is the only other big in the game (to rest Sheed and KG). Otherwise it should just be KG and/or Perk and/or Sheed (two or one with a small lineup).

[CaptChris]

nepg: Same excuse. BB is the best "O" rebounder we have. We are last in the league. So he is at fault? Wallace is a big part of that. He is never there on the "O" or the "D" board. Shooting 33% or near it, gets you all the grief in the world if you are Ray Allen. But not if you are Wallace or Rondo. Just as Rondo being the "Worst foul shooting Guard", in the league, and Perkins a total waste is OK. It's just how they are. All guys should be praised for their good things and nailed for their faults. It gets a little old when BB gets blames for everyone elses shortcomings. He has enough of his own.

It gets a little old when Perk's man or Rondo's man smokes them, but "Oh NO! It is the system that caused it to happen. Then when they do somethng good it is never the system that made it happen. It is always them alone.

How many posts have you seen on how well Ray has played lately? How many did you ever hear about Eddie's terrible "D"?

[nighthob]

New York was abusing the Help Defense in the Pick and Roll, which made it look like Perk was the fall guy. His role was to switch/help on the guy with the ball and the PF is supposed to help by covering the rolling man going towards the bucket. Scalabrine was actually doing a better job than Perk as he's quick enough to recover and get to the bucket, Perk/most Centers just arent that fast, particularly while covering a PF (lee). Of course Scalabrine's strong D was rewarded with a spot on the Bench so Big Belly could do his "defensive" masterwork, because you know Doc rewards Defense?


If any of Boston's PF/Cs other than Davis could grab an offensive board he'd probably never leave the bench. (I'll spare repeating my point about their need to add another 4/5 this offseason and their lack of ability to do so due to salary constraints.)

[CBForThree]

BBD could lead the league in O boards, and it would not matter one bit. Not until he learns that he is the absolute last-ditch final option offensively - he should only be shooting high percentage, and preferably at the ass end of the shot clock in attempt to avoid a violation. Pull them down and pass them. Don't listen to KG - you are not "the man".

[texascelticsfan]

Perk plays very well within the system and does what the coaches ask, typically his strong outings are part of being paired with KG, but also timed with more physical opponents. Perk's O is such a minimal part of the offense, and what he does with his % of possession is not bad at all. They are not asking him to score like Dwight Howard, they are asking him not to let Dwight score like Dwight Howard, which he usually does.

On most rebounds, two of the opposing players are boxing out Perk, not one. That should tell you something in itself, that opposing teams recognize Perks rebounding and hone in on it. Why do you think Anthony Parker was grabbing Perk while Varejo went over his back? With KG not rebounding the way he used to, teams are able to control the boards by controlling the teams only rebounder, Perk.

Lets look at 2009 and 2010 Rebounding:

Perk:
2009: 8.1 rpg
2010: 8.0 rpg

KG:
2009: 8.5 rpg
2010: 7.4 rpg (10.9 Career avg)

Pierce:
2009: 5.6 rpg
2010: 4.6 rpg (6.2 Career Avg)

Ray Allen
2009: 3.5 rpg
2010: 3.4 rpg (4.4 Career)

Rajon Rondo
2009: 5.2 rpg
2010: 4.4 rpg

Rasheed Wallace
2009: 7.4 rpg
2010: 4.1 rpg

Glen Davis
2009: 4.0 rpg
2010: 4.0 rpg

[nepg]

nepg: Same excuse. BB is the best "O" rebounder we have. We are last in the league. So he is at fault? Wallace is a big part of that. He is never there on the "O" or the "D" board. Shooting 33% or near it, gets you all the grief in the world if you are Ray Allen. But not if you are Wallace or Rondo. Just as Rondo being the "Worst foul shooting Guard", in the league, and Perkins a total waste is OK. It's just how they are. All guys should be praised for their good things and nailed for their faults. It gets a little old when BB gets blames for everyone elses shortcomings. He has enough of his own.

It gets a little old when Perk's man or Rondo's man smokes them, but "Oh NO! It is the system that caused it to happen. Then when they do somethng good it is never the system that made it happen. It is always them alone.

How many posts have you seen on how well Ray has played lately? How many did you ever hear about Eddie's terrible "D"?

Ray and House aren't there to play defense, so I don't expect either of them to play good defense (which makes the times when they have played well a bonus).

I don't know what you're referring to when you say Perk is a "waste". I don't have any problem with Rondo not being a good shooter. It's not his job. He has a role (ball handling & defense), and he does it extremely well. Perk has a role and he does it well (though they need to get him more involved on offense).

Big Baby has no role. He just gets in the way of everyone else being able to do their job. He doesn't shoot well, he doesn't play defense, he has zero athleticism, he's short, and he's emotional (and plays worse as he gets more emotional).

If 'Sheed is hitting his 3's at a 33% or better rate (33% is a nice clip), their odds at getting an offensive rebound are as good as the opposing team's chances to get a defensive rebound because they'll need to send their bigs out to the 3-point line to defend Wallace. That's the whole point. The Celtics used this strategy with LaFrentz early in the Indiana series way back when and it took Jermaine O'Neal completely out of the game, but abandoned it in favore of Walker-ball (an early indication of how bad Doc Rivers is).

[texascelticsfan]

It is at the "O" end that disappoints me. He is one and done.

Who leads the NBA in FG% with .617? And, who is 35-71 at the Rim this season and is ranked 63rd out of 66 PF's getting 10 min+ per game?

Thats right Perk leads the NBA in FG% and Big Baby can't even make layups consistently.

Only 3 PF's are worse than BB offensively speaking, Yi, Najera & Jared Jeffries.

Source (http://celticshub.com/2010/02/26/the-re-re-invention-of-glen-davis-is-it-working/)

[OB- wan]

If Beer Belly would grab the O board and kick it out and start over he would be helping but his BS where he pump fakes and looks for a faggy way to flip it through an opening under the glass is wack.

O rebounds are great if they result in a real scoring op.

[missing35]

agree with this 100% OB. It seems everyone outside of Perk gets their shot sent back or severely changed whenever they grab an O board. We need some athleticism in a bad bad way. Its a young mans game and the C's for the most part don't fit into that description.

Too bad the Cs don't play in a CYO league, 4 8 minute quarters might be just about right for these old guys. Maybe, just maybe they could put together an entire game rather than a first half.

[Spleen]

There is an official tracking of blocked shots and Howard leads it, but is there any tracking of how many shots a player has blocked? If there were, Big Belly, a.k.a. Uno Uno, would likely be leading the league. It isn't that Big Belly doesn't have some value, as he's good at blocking out and leveraging his strength against big men, heck he even delivered a Shaq-a-whack the other night. The real problem is that we are depending on him too much for that inside play and that exposes him for his lack of lift, or ability to always get off his shot in traffic.

I thought Sheldon had played surprisingly well while Big Belly was out, but has since been sequestered to the bench like a leper. Did he do something bad to piss off Doc? Williams can grab rebounds and block shots better than Belly, and might end up shooting at least as well if given any amount of minutes. He also can keep his mouthpiece in his mouth, probably because he isn't popping it out to mouth off at the refs. Belly showing in the Playoffs had as much to do with the opponents focusing on containing Paul and Ray as it did with anything he did. Making shots in the open is always easier than in traffic.

Sometimes I feel that Doc gets entrenched in a single line of thinking and has a difficult time switching lanes.

[nighthob]

Per 82 Games Davis gets about 22% of his shots blocked. I have no idea where he ranks in the league, but my guess would be pretty high. Shelden has hands of stone, and, like the rest of the forwards, isn't a very good offensive rebounder. Added to that is the fact that he's not particularly good as a primary help defender. Davis pretty much gets into games because he can grab an offensive board and is quick enough to take charges on defense. If Boston had bought a couple of late firsts and drafted DeJuan Blair and Darren Collison we'd likely never see Davis at all and have a much better feeling about the future (because we wouldn't be worrying about how much of the MLE to spend on a backup PG).

[Bogg]

How many of San An's young assets(Blair, Hill, Splitter) do you think we could get packaged with RJ's expiring for Pierce?

[nepg]

I wonder what they could've gotten for Pierce if they'd traded him this year...

[Bogg]

Can't imagine it would have been much, he's owed 21.5 million next year. Joe Dumars couldn't move Rip Hamilton's 12.5/year salary to anyone because most owners just aren't taking on big financial commitments right now. Pierce's salary as an expiring contract is much more movable than it is now.

[nighthob]

Actually he had a chance to move it to Boston and blew it. Had he taken Boston's offer in the pre-season he'd be sitting pretty. Instead he waited until the Celtics owners got the vapors about maintaining payroll and nixed trading Ray Allen except in a Garnett-type transaction. Now he's stuck.

[nepg]

I wonder if they can send him to the Clippers for picks and an exception. Can't see him turning down a chance to play with Baron Davis in their home town, and he'd complete a solid starting line-up (Davis, Gordon, Pierce, Kaman, Griffin).

[nighthob]

Why would they deal Pierce for low first round picks? Giving away your best player for nothing is a sure path to failure. The only guys they're going to acquire for nothing are the guys that the owners refused to trade Ray Allen for, so I'm not sure what the point of such a trade would be.

[Bogg]

Yea, I wasn't totally serious about moving Pierce to San An, but sending him to the Clippers just doesn't make sense. Unless the cap comes in a few million higher than expected they'd have to send back salary to make the numbers work. We want no part of Baron Davis or Chris Kaman and their contracts; and L.A. has no intention of giving up Blake Griffin, Eric Gordon, and/or this years top ten pick, whomever that may be.

In regards to Rip, I had completely blanked on the Hamilton/Prince/Stuckey for Ray/Rondo offer from over the summer. In retrospect turning that down was disastrous for Dumars, he'd be in much better shape sitting on Rondo and cap space than 27 million of Rip, Prince, and Stuckey(well worth his 2.7 mil though) next year. In fact, their lineup would have worked pretty well with Rondo because they'd have the shooters and athletes to run with him and space the floor. The Celtics would probably have been better too. Dumars screwed two franchises overvaluing his players.

[nighthob]

For the record if the Clippers were willing to send Eric Gordon over (or, alternatively, if they were able to draft Wall or Evan Turner and send them over instead) I'd be on board with a Clippers deal. But Garnett wouldn't be happy about the team deconstructing around him, so they'd really need to have the second leg of that trade lined up ahead of time (as in have a prearranged deal with Phoenix for Amare or something like that). Financially a Clippers deal would work the same way the Garnett deal worked for Boston, the Clippers would sign Pierce to an extension bringing the contract in under the cap.

[Bogg]

Well yea, if the Clips were willing to give up Gordon or this years' pick to get Pierce(an L.A. native, for what it's worth) I'd be on board with sending him out, but I don't see that happening. Trading KG becomes mandatory at that point, but I can't see Phoenix taking on the two years and 40 million dollars owed to him beyond this year. OKC could use a big and veteran that knows how to win, and they have cap space, so something like Collison's contract plus both their picks this year(their own and Phoenix's) or one pick and Ibaka might make sense. Garnett's massive salary combined with his balky knee make him difficult to get any value for at this point though.

[nighthob]

Theoretically you would be discussing a three way deal where Pierce goes to LA, and Amare comes to Boston using the TPE from Pierce going to LA. If the Clippers end up with the second pick, they wouldn't have room for Gordon, Turner, and Pierce anyways, so I could see them sending E-Go in that instance.

[Bogg]

Oh, I see, obviously I thought you meant a KG-for-Amare deal, which didn't make sense. I could see sending out Pierce in a multi-team deal in which we get back Amare, although the resulting lack of wing depth probably necessitates moving Perk for a swingman. The good news is that centers who can defend are in high demand, especially among the Western contenders, so turning Perk into a good small forward or guard wouldn't be too difficult. In an ideal world we could get Sideshow Robin packaged with Amare as a Perk replacement, but I don't see Phoenix giving up their starting frontcourt without getting a center as well.

[nighthob]

Oh, I see, obviously I thought you meant a KG-for-Amare deal, which didn't make sense. I could see sending out Pierce in a multi-team deal in which we get back Amare, although the resulting lack of wing depth probably necessitates moving Perk for a swingman. The good news is that centers who can defend are in high demand, especially among the Western contenders, so turning Perk into a good small forward or guard wouldn't be too difficult. In an ideal world we could get Sideshow Robin packaged with Amare as a Perk replacement, but I don't see Phoenix giving up their starting frontcourt without getting a center as well.

Yeah, they would likely need to bring Marquis Daniels back along with Tony, and then try to find another swingman. If Atlanta decides against renewing their QO to Josh Childress they could try making a max-MLE offer there. They could also talk to T-Mac, I suppose. But he's even more injury prone than 'Quis. There are some roleplaying swingmen that could float to Boston in the draft, as well.

[Bogg]

We could ship Perk to Denver for J.R. Smith and still throw the max MLE at Childress, going with a big rotation of Amare and KG backed up by our current group. It'd require coming up with roughly a half million in additional salary to make the numbers work, but I'm sure Marcus Landry would be thrilled to get a second contract. Bring back Ray and Tony at reasonable rates, letting Daniels and Nate walk, and we'd just need another point guard to back up Rondo.