View Full Version : 2/25/10: Cavs @ Celtics
UConn Celtics Fan
02-25-2010, 04:43 PM
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Thursday, February 25, 2010
8:00 PM Eastern
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Boston, Massachusetts
Rajon Rondo PG Mo Williams
Ray Allen SG Anthony Parker
Tony Allen SF LeBron James
Kevin Garnett PF Antawn Jamison
Kendrick Perkins C Shaquille O'Neal
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CaptChris
02-25-2010, 06:31 PM
It will be a game of the boards. They are the best & we are the worst. They lost "Iggy", and his "O" rebounding, but picked up Jamison. Hickson is tough too. Second shots will kill us. Got to play good "D", and hold on to the ball.
Like to see if Robinson is getting comfortible, we can use his spark.
Well, Rondo came out hot. Impressive start to the game, but Cleveland's bound to pick it up at some point.
meta4
02-25-2010, 07:53 PM
if I call him nate dogg...he just looks...like a... ... .. nate.
I believe for a while in NY they called him Lil' 50 because he looks a bit like 50 Cent, for what it's worth.
meta4
02-25-2010, 08:17 PM
seriously, this is like a ray allen renaissance...it's like he woke up and was like...wait I still got it?!
Well he entered that terrible slump in the '08 playoffs when his son was sick. I'm not trying to equate trade rumors with "your young son is very sick and we don't know why", but it's been established before that when his head is elsewhere his game suffers significantly.
meta4
02-25-2010, 08:29 PM
you may b right. now we've seen the c's do this for the last couple mnths...losing leads and big leads at that. this is a big test...can they maintain this lead. Kg is looking decent, him and rondo are starting to look like the kg/rondo combo of old--sort of
CaptChris
02-25-2010, 08:32 PM
Quite a half! Rondo was terrific. So was Ray. We shot 60%. KG, Perk and Rasheed played well. Rasheed even went inside, where everyone says he is unstopbale. BB got Shaq out of the game. Robinson ws a spark.
Go Celtics!
We're a bad second half team...........
CaptChris
02-25-2010, 10:02 PM
Just liike a Mother-in-Law. Great when she cooks on Thanksgiving. Bad when she gives you the Bad Stuff after dinner!
We just played the worst 2nd half of the year. OOPS!
If Miami strikes out in free agency, think they'd take Pierce and KG off our hands and send back their two first round picks to get Wade to re-sign? It makes no sense to maintain an 85 million dollar payroll with Rondo as your best player. (not 100% serious, but this roster doesn't make sense anymore)
nighthob
02-25-2010, 10:33 PM
If Miami strikes out in free agency, think they'd take Pierce and KG off our hands and send back their two first round picks to get Wade to re-sign? It makes no sense to maintain an 85 million dollar payroll with Rondo as your best player. (not 100% serious, but this roster doesn't make sense anymore)
The owners signaled their intentions when they elected to let $30 million in contracts expire rather than using them to reload. Pierce and Garnett aren't going anywhere and Boston is going into "sneak into the playoffs and hope for a seven game exit in the second round" mode.
The owners signaled their intentions when they elected to let $30 million in contracts expire rather than using them to reload. Pierce and Garnett aren't going anywhere and Boston is going into "sneak into the playoffs and hope for a seven game exit in the second round" mode.
Oh, I know we aren't actually trading them, it's just hard to get interested in a future that amounts to hoping to get to the second round this year and next followed by a lockout season. If we wind up in fourth this spring Toronto could give us a series. I'd rather rebuild completely than just watch the slow backslide of an old non-contender.
NorEaster
02-25-2010, 10:57 PM
I have follewed the Celtics since '82. My dad and I would listen to Johnny Most with the volume down and watch the game. I neva would think of myself as an old school Celtics fan given that the old timers would talk of Russel and many others whom I neva saw at the game. Fast forward to the present....tonights game says it all......Cleveland....the best team in basketball rolls into town and slams us. Oh no!!!!!!!! I can hear the over optimistic bunch saying "we did not have Pierce!' Hahahahaha like he would make a difference. This game was a matter of pride and the C's sucked eggs. I was a very optimistic C's fan but when in late February you have the number one team in the NBA come onto your home court and kick your @ss gimmie a break. Some will say its only one game but I say it shows how little you know of the psyche of top notch players. This was a gut check for the C's and they got schooled. Pierce would not have changed anything! If the C's get by the first round in the playoffs it will be lucky. I dont care what the front office or any player has to say. These folks are only intrested in the bottom line and how much they can stick in their own wallet. I will be at the Charlotte game next Wed. behind the C's bench. I will boo if they start slacking off or play with no heart. I don't care if they get upset. I was a optimist until this game. Like I said when the best team in the game rolls into town and you lay down and get smoked well then I say F!ck U! The C's have to prove to me and every other fan out there now that they have the ability to go deep in the playoffs! I don't want to hear front office propaganda about how 'when we are 100% healthy blah blah.' Try winning a game against one of the top notch teams! I bought into the injuries argument and wanted to belive that when the games started to matter the C's would show they had game! LOL! After tonight the C's showed they would be lucky to limp into the payoffs. As of now this team of senior citizens are going nowhere. Hey Ainge........did ya really think that after we got lucky in 08 that we would go much further? Gimmie a break............guess what!?! It is lookign like it is it is time to tear down the team and rebuild....what now...another 20 years for another chaimpionship?!? LOL! I will be dead by then so I could give a f@ck less! Just my 2 cents.
UPDATE: This rant was just after the game and more then a few beers. I won't change it as it is raw emotion and even the infamous 'day after' with a sober head I can not disagree with it.
CBForThree
02-26-2010, 12:33 PM
I was at the Garden last night (sixteen rows directly behind the basket - 1st half visitors'). It was enjoyable with the starters on the floor, obviously, and even until things petered out into the 2nd half (I knew a 10pt lead over LJ was too much to ask to hang onto). Did they say on TV why so much R&R for Diesel? I don't remember him being in FT. Perkins delivered on his promise to stay on him and stay physical, so maybe he was just frustrated? The couple of good moments he had were when KG somehow ended up on him (???).
This team has some inside game. It just doesn't like exercising it after halftime. That's a big part of the problem. LeBron flirting with 40pts and a triple double doesn't help (is my vision OK...was that Tony Allen 1on1 on James??...yeah, it was...brilliant).
I know the trade deadline's passed, but Tony and Glen can not remain in Celtics uniforms for there to be even a slim hope in the postseason. Maybe a backroom deal with NY where we waive both of them, and they waive all the guys we lost for Nate, and then everybody gets what they need (at least us, anyway).
texascelticsfan
02-26-2010, 01:33 PM
Shaq sprained his thumb when Davis "blocked" his shot.
I am wondering why DOc gave Rondo absolutely no rest until garbage time started towards the end of the game. I think that might have contributed to the poor performance of the entire team, which got progressively worse as the 2nd half went on. I know that Pierce was injured, but surely he could have given Rondo a few minutes rest here and there. I think his increasing lack of aggression as the game went along is because of fatigue.
nighthob
02-26-2010, 02:00 PM
I know the trade deadline's passed, but Tony and Glen can not remain in Celtics uniforms for there to be even a slim hope in the postseason. Maybe a backroom deal with NY where we waive both of them, and they waive all the guys we lost for Nate, and then everybody gets what they need (at least us, anyway).
Which of JR Giddens & Billy Walker would be the backup PF? Are you seriously proposing that Boston give them major rotation minutes as a cure-all for their ills? I hate to be the one to break the news to you, Boston actually needs Davis & TA. (A terrifying thought that.)
texascelticsfan
02-26-2010, 02:32 PM
I actually think Tony is one of the few bright spots this season. He has his usual warts, they just aren't as apparent and he's playing some serious D of late. Also, he's one of the few players that DOESN'T settle for Jumpers, which is a plague for the C's right now. If Rondo/Sheed/Ray are settling for jumpers in the 3rd, the lead is going down.
CBForThree
02-26-2010, 03:03 PM
Which of JR Giddens & Billy Walker would be the backup PF? Are you seriously proposing that Boston give them major rotation minutes as a cure-all for their ills? I hate to be the one to break the news to you, Boston actually needs Davis & TA. (A terrifying thought that.)
Well Sheed is ostensibly there to spell KG as well as Perk. You're right, though, we're not the strongest team on the big line and my proposal would spread it even thinner.
Terrifying indeed, when two major liabilities are the only ones performing certain critical functions.
I actually think Tony is one of the few bright spots this season. He has his usual warts, they just aren't as apparent and he's playing some serious D of late. Also, he's one of the few players that DOESN'T settle for Jumpers, which is a plague for the C's right now. If Rondo/Sheed/Ray are settling for jumpers in the 3rd, the lead is going down.
Well, if they actually ever used Walker, I think we'd think differently of their need for Davis. Davis essentially plays a SF role, which is bad because then he thinks he is a SF... I'd rather have 1 big out there with a smaller lineup than have Davis out there at all - ever.
texascelticsfan
02-26-2010, 04:20 PM
Walker fits the D'Antoni run and gun system, he was completely lost on the C's defensive rotations, so he sat.
CBForThree
02-26-2010, 09:42 PM
Walker fits the D'Antoni run and gun system, he was completely lost on the C's defensive rotations, so he sat.
Based on what, the half hour of garbage time Doc gave him over the course of a season and a half?
CaptChris
02-27-2010, 07:29 AM
Walker fits the D'Antoni run and gun system, he was completely lost on the C's defensive rotations, so he sat.
This very true. Some players benifit from the system they play under, and others suffer. Their game is more designed for a running team or a walk-up team.
Example: Perk benifits because the Celts play TEAM "D". He moves very well when covering exposed areas with help "D", and protecting the middle. He benifits from the walk-up style because of his lack of speed. He moves to the open spot for the lay-ups as well as anyone in the league.
So he fits here, and the price is Right. .He would have trouble with one-on-one "D" against a faster more mobile player. He would have trouble getting his own shots.
texascelticsfan
03-01-2010, 12:08 PM
Based on what, the half hour of garbage time Doc gave him over the course of a season and a half?
Im a big Billy Walker fan, but in the Very Limited time he did see, he did not understand the schemes. D'Antoni is just a better fit for him, there are several players that would flourish under him.
Perk is a Defense first player who can defend one on one with the best center in the league, you really can't ask much more from him. His attitude is not "coast til the playoffs" like some other vets either.
Walker's super-talented. So what if he doesn't get the defense? He's a talented defender. Throw him out there for decent minutes and he'll get it eventually.
Being lost in the system never kept Doc from playing Baby, Scal, Tony Allen, Ray Allen, Eddie House, Delonte West, or Nate Robinson...
Now we're going to painfully watch Bill Walker quickly take Tracy McGrady's job and become the main man in New York...for a trash combo guard that won't even be in Boston next year (and House and Giddens are gone too).
texascelticsfan
03-02-2010, 12:39 PM
Billy Walker went for 21 points against the Cavs last night.
Walker's super-talented...
Being lost in the system never kept Doc from playing Baby, Scal, Tony Allen, Ray Allen, Eddie House, Delonte West, or Nate Robinson...
I don't know much about Walker, but doesn't what you just said tell you something about his ability? Maybe he isn't as super-talented as you think - i.e. if he were, he would have gotten playing time!
Doc only plays young players with talent when he's forced to. He's shown this tendency his entire tenure in Boston, and even in Orlando.
The only reason Rondo and Perk got playing time a couple years ago is because they were the only PG and C on the team. Ainge has had to take options away to get Doc to play the right guys at times.
Talented players aren't going to get better by practicing, they get better by playing in games.
Yes, you're probably right. But I think you might also see how people like myself, who admittedly do not follow college basketball, can be skeptical about players who are supposed to be really good but aren't getting playing time. I mean, during that season from hell before the championship season, I had to endure Sebastion Telfair, Gerald Green, and Marcus Banks (he might have been the prior season; I forget, and no wonder!) - players who Doc had to play because he had no one else, and they were all pretty poor. Even Henisohn couldn't find anything good to say about Telfair, and Heinsohn seldom badmouths young players.
nighthob
03-03-2010, 10:46 AM
Perk is a Defense first player who can defend one on one with the best center in the league, you really can't ask much more from him. His attitude is not "coast til the playoffs" like some other vets either.
Do you have any other rational explanation for Perkins' total lack of effort for the last month? (It's possible that Rondo succeeded in permanently opening a vet/kid schism on the team, but if that's the case it's time to break up the kid corps.)
Walker's super-talented. So what if he doesn't get the defense? He's a talented defender. Throw him out there for decent minutes and he'll get it eventually.
Being lost in the system never kept Doc from playing Baby, Scal, Tony Allen, Ray Allen, Eddie House, Delonte West, or Nate Robinson...
Now we're going to painfully watch Bill Walker quickly take Tracy McGrady's job and become the main man in New York...for a trash combo guard that won't even be in Boston next year (and House and Giddens are gone too).
Walker was a single position player, the position played by Paul Pierce. He just wasn't going to beat out Pierce for minutes, and he wasn't going to get a green light to fire up shots here. He needed to find other ways to contribute here and couldn't. I don't really have any problems with the deal they made for Nate Robinson, though I wish they'd made it over the summer (so that they could keep him long term).
(It's possible that Rondo succeeded in permanently opening a vet/kid schism on the team, but if that's the case it's time to break up the kid corps.)
Unless we got outstanding value for Rondo I can't really see unloading him and Perk to keep Pierce, KG, and Allen around an extra year or two, with none of them being real franchise guys at this point. I think it'd be harder for Danny to move Rondo(as a BYC guy next year) for either an older all-star or another high-level young guy and get back at least equal value than it would to let Ray walk, unload Pierce and KG for picks and prospects, and go into full-on rebuilding mode. We're not winning a title in the next four years either way, might as well get value for the older guys while we still can.
CaptChris
03-03-2010, 12:15 PM
Perk is a Defense first player who can defend one on one with the best center in the league, you really can't ask much more from him. His attitude is not "coast til the playoffs" like some other vets either.
TCF: How would Perk work out playing Center for the Pacers -- Nets -- or any other teams that don't stress "D"? Teams that want to RUN? Teams with a 2nd rate PG?
Perk fits well here. He has never played anywhere else. He has never shown that he can play any game but the one he does here. His strenghth is TEAM "D". He works well against big strong SLOW Centers. He looks bad against players with speed. That is a big weakness in one-on-one "D". Playing guys away from the basket, he has trouble.
Credit him with his Assets. He has plenty. Accept that is "limiited" in other ways. Playing Shaq is a whole different ballgame than trying to stay with Lee or Lopez.
Why is it that Perk can have NO FLAWS. Every player does. We get excuses every time he gets "smoked" by an opposing Center. KWell, that guy is really a Power Forward or someone was supposed to cover for him. It is the SYSTEM.
nighthob
03-03-2010, 12:54 PM
Unless we got outstanding value for Rondo I can't really see unloading him and Perk to keep Pierce, KG, and Allen around an extra year or two, with none of them being real franchise guys at this point.
I was thinking more along the lines of moving Perkins and hoping that Rondo took the lesson.
I was thinking more along the lines of moving Perkins and hoping that Rondo took the lesson.
Oh, I could see moving Perk if a team was desperate for a center. I'd actually be interested in seeing what OKC would be willing to offer, as they have more guards and forwards than they know what to do with and two picks this year with no room for more young guys, but no real center.
nighthob
03-03-2010, 05:30 PM
Oh, I could see moving Perk if a team was desperate for a center. I'd actually be interested in seeing what OKC would be willing to offer, as they have more guards and forwards than they know what to do with and two picks this year with no room for more young guys, but no real center.
That would actually be a decent idea. I suppose Perkins/Davis for Krstic/Maynor and the two early 20s picks would be the deal (it's all that I can think of that works salary-wise). They'd have their backup point, and then three firsts to see if they could dig up some roleplayers. Of course, they'd need to take a swing at someone like a Craig Brackins or Solomon Abai (if he floats) to shore up the middle. But it would give them room to gamble on a Lance Stephenson or Elias Harris (presuming they could talk one or both into entering the draft). Maynor would stabilise the backup PG spot and give them the chance to take a run at someone like Josh Childress with either a max-MLE offer or even a Ray Allen sign & trade.
The Thunder will also have about 13 million in cap space this summer(before rookie contracts), so we'd have the ability to take back a second younger player on a small contract instead of Krstic if the Thunder picked for us on draft night and then sat on the rights to those guys until the cap rolled over. Or, you know, blow it out to a mega-deal and start over(they're probably the only team you could make a reasonable argument for having an interest in taking on Garnett AND Sheed with Perk). The latter won't happen, but it's a fun theoretical to play around with.
Those Thunder scenarios leave the C's with nothing in the front court.
I was in favor of moving Perk to get back Amare Stoudemire to build a new core (Rondo & Amare - even though I'm not a huge Amare fan), but trading Perk without getting back a big that's worth a crap (within the trade or in another connected trade) is a bad deal.
If the C's move Perk or KG, they need to be doing so to bring in a big to pair with Rondo for the long haul. Perk in OKC puts them on top of the West. In nighthob's trade, the C's still win the Atlantic because Bosh is gone from Toronto, but they do as a ~.500 team.
Looking at the future of the team, Rondo and Perk are the only two that matter. Problem is, they don't work together as a tandem. Perk works best in the paint, and would be Beast in a situation where he doesn't have to clear out to make room for a PG to drive to the basket because the only chance to score is if the PG can drive in for a lay-up. I think this was part of the reason they had issues with Rondo in the off-season. They have to choose between Perk and Rondo... Unfortunately with Perk, the C's have been completely unable to find a PG who's capable of playing on the perimeter.
So they're in a situation where they have to find a way to get an athletic big that is compatible with Rondo. They missed their chance at the trade deadline, it seems...
You' have to do something to bring in another big, but if we could get Maynor, two picks, and a serviceable big in either Krstic or Collison you'd have to at least look at that, having three first round picks this year would make the eventual rebuild much easier. In my much more unrealistic scenario in which KG, and possibly Rasheed also, go to OKC, it doesn't really matter because we'd be getting back a better package(I like Ibaka alot) and we'd be blowing up the team anyway. Either OKC theoretical is highly dependent on how the rest of the season and the playoffs unfold anyways.
You can get draft picks, but will Doc play them? Big Baby is the only player they've drafted since the KG trade that's still there, and he sucks.
nighthob
03-04-2010, 09:24 AM
Just a note, they drafted Davis before the Garnett deal, historically speaking. And, let's be honest, Danny hasn't had a lot of draft picks since the trade and booted the one he had.
nighthob
03-04-2010, 11:40 PM
You' have to do something to bring in another big, but if we could get Maynor, two picks, and a serviceable big in either Krstic or Collison you'd have to at least look at that, having three first round picks this year would make the eventual rebuild much easier. In my much more unrealistic scenario in which KG, and possibly Rasheed also, go to OKC, it doesn't really matter because we'd be getting back a better package(I like Ibaka alot) and we'd be blowing up the team anyway. Either OKC theoretical is highly dependent on how the rest of the season and the playoffs unfold anyways.
New York has imploded of late, putting Utah in a good spot to land #1, I wonder if they'd be amenable to granting Deron Williams his wish and replacing him with John Wall? It would need to be a three way deal with one of the under-the-cap teams in the summer, with Rondo/Davis going for picks to Utah for Williams, but he'd be a better fit with Boston's personnel, and give them a shot at another year or two of contention.
New York has imploded of late, putting Utah in a good spot to land #1, I wonder if they'd be amenable to granting Deron Williams his wish and replacing him with John Wall? It would need to be a three way deal with one of the under-the-cap teams in the summer, with Rondo/Davis going for picks to Utah for Williams, but he'd be a better fit with Boston's personnel, and give them a shot at another year or two of contention.
As much as I like Rondo and want to keep him around, Williams is one of those players that he can be moved for. Out of the teams with cap space, I can't see Sacramento(Evans), Miami(Wade), New Jersey(Harris), OKC(Westbrook), Chicago(Rose), LAC(Davis), or Minnesota(Flynn+Sessions+Rubio) giving up serious assets for Rondo because he'd fit poorly with their current roster. The Knicks don't have the assets to facilitate a three-way deal unless Utah absolutely loves Gallinari, and NY doesn't want to move him. That more or less leaves Washington, who desperately needs a (new)point guard in a forward-heavy draft, and Memphis, if Rudy Gay leaves and they want to upgrade Mike Conley.
Memphis is only slated to have about 6 million in cap space this summer if Rudy Gay leaves, but have Conley's 5 million expiring and other small-to-medium deals to work with, as well as three picks in this years' draft. They're not a perfect fit, but Mayo, Randolph, and Gasol shoot well enough to play at a high level with Rondo, and Rondo and Mayo would be quite the combination on the perimeter defensively.
Washington would probably be the best trade partner in your particular scenario. I can't imagine they're planning to continue on long-term with Arenas, so they need a new point guard in a weak draft for the position after Wall. They'll have a top ten pick and Cleveland's first this year to send to Utah, as well as some expendable young talent in Thornton, Young and Foye(if re-signed) should they need to be included.
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