Requiem for Celtic Pride

[Spleen]

Yesterday's performance against the Nets set a new low for a team hurting far more than the sum of its injuries. Coming off the dreadful collapse against the Cavs might have lead one to believe that the Nets were in for some fury and anger venting rivaling the thrashing they delivered in their earlier meeting. Instead, the worst team on the planet came into the storied home of the Boston Celtics and before a nearly full house they bitch slapped the men in green, plain and simple. The Pierce-less Celtics came out listless and progressed to flaccid, culminating into sheer impotence. How could such a shameful thing happen to a team fielding multiple All Star recipients and future hall-of-famers?

Celtic pride has been a mainstay of this franchise for decades and has always been that one intangible that the Celtics had going for them that had served them well for more than half a century. February 27, 2010 marks the extinction of the legendary Celtic Pride. This is a team with far more illness than some nagging injuries; rather it is team lacking pride. There has been much said of everyone needing to sacrifice their individualism for the sake of the team, yet this has been demonstrated to be little more than lip service as we are nearing the 3/4 point of the season. Getting Pierce back and Garnett healthy is not going to cure this malaise of the spirit, and without this belief there is little point to play out the rest of the season. Danny understands this now, and probably did before the trading deadline but was unable to act upon it to make a significant change. Even letting Ray go away this summer won't do anything for the mix on the roster, and we're over the limit so his $20 million won't translate to any significant additions.

More than the apparent erosion of talent and athleticism dragging the team back into the ranks of mediocrity is a far worst malady, one for which there is no known cure, that of the demise of Celtic Pride.

[RAH]

Getting Pierce back and Garnett healthy is not going to cure this malaise of the spirit
Not sure I agree with you. If both of them were back and healthy, I think the team would start winning again and then the spirit would return. But, of course, these are big ifs. As it stands, things certainly look awfully grim. What makes it worse is the high expectations we all had at the start of the season. I think I find watching the recent games to be much more painful than watching them lose game after game during the season before the championship year. Oh well...

[Bogg]

Look, I'm all for blowing up the current core and all, but a likely win total in the high forties to low fifties and a second round elimination isn't exactly a new low for the franchise. Let's not go overboard with the sky is falling routine, we're far from in the worst shape in the league as a franchise/roster.

[RAH]

Yes, I agree that winning 50+ games is not too shabby, but considering how high expectations were (i.e. almost certain to win the championship), it is a big letdown. You've probably seen that clip of Gary Tanguay saying, "They could win 72 games!" I'm surprised they keep playing that as part of their intro and ads, considering how overblown it sounds now, but that was the feeling at the start of the season. It seemed like essentially the same team as 2 years ago, but with the additions of Sheed and Daniels considered better than the loss of Posey and Powe. ANd all the injuries were supposed to be over. Go figure.

[Spleen]

Look, I'm all for blowing up the current core and all, but a likely win total in the high forties to low fifties and a second round elimination isn't exactly a new low for the franchise. Let's not go overboard with the sky is falling routine, we're far from in the worst shape in the league as a franchise/roster.

If you had read what I actually said about setting a new franchise low then you would have understood that I was referring to that little matinee madness Saturday that the gals-in-green performed against a team bucking for the worst record ever. Doc has to maintain an even keel in this even though he has to be seething. Several years ago during the Gomes years, a loss like this may have been considered par for the course, but we gambled everything on building the current big three and had high hopes of more than one championship before it sank. Another championship with this crew is about as likely as winning a lottery.

Sucking fart gas isn't my idea of a good time, and I'd feel a lot better about the team now and in the future if Danny had been able to pull off that deal with Washington for Butler and Haywood for Ray that the Mavs did. Mark Cuban is looking pretty good now and for the next few years, and unfortunately for the Wiz Howard is out for the year after just half a dozen games.

Marc Spears is twitting about the Celtics having interest in Michael Finley as the Spurs are in the process of releasing him. Question is if the Spurs who are an older team don't want him and would rather take his spot and bring in someone else, then what does that tell you about what they feel he left in the tank? If Finley isn't good enough for the Spurs bench, then I'd have to think he's about had it.

[Bogg]

If you had read what I actually said about setting a new franchise low then you would have understood that I was referring to that little matinee madness Saturday that the gals-in-green performed against a team bucking for the worst record ever. Doc has to maintain an even keel in this even though he has to be seething. Several years ago during the Gomes years, a loss like this may have been considered par for the course, but we gambled everything on building the current big three and had high hopes of more than one championship before it sank. Another championship with this crew is about as likely as winning a lottery.

Sucking fart gas isn't my idea of a good time, and I'd feel a lot better about the team now and in the future if Danny had been able to pull off that deal with Washington for Butler and Haywood for Ray that the Mavs did. Mark Cuban is looking pretty good now and for the next few years, and unfortunately for the Wiz Howard is out for the year after just half a dozen games.

Marc Spears is twitting about the Celtics having interest in Michael Finley as the Spurs are in the process of releasing him. Question is if the Spurs who are an older team don't want him and would rather take his spot and bring in someone else, then what does that tell you about what they feel he left in the tank? If Finley isn't good enough for the Spurs bench, then I'd have to think he's about had it.

I read what you wrote, you're just being overdramatic regarding the importance of one game. It's not the first time a team's come out sloppy and disinterested against a bad team and lost when they were heavy favorites. Every team in the NBA has good basketball players on it, and any team can lose to any other team on any given night. The '86 Celtics lost more games to sub-.500 teams than teams above .500, and had a loss to each of the worst four teams in the league that year. Bad games happen, it's not the end of the world, I'm more concerned about our consistent inability to rebound and protect leads than one bad afternoon game against an opponent they didn't take seriously.

[Spleen]

I read what you wrote, you're just being overdramatic regarding the importance of one game. It's not the first time a team's come out sloppy and disinterested against a bad team and lost when they were heavy favorites. Every team in the NBA has good basketball players on it, and any team can lose to any other team on any given night. The '86 Celtics lost more games to sub-.500 teams than teams above .500, and had a loss to each of the worst four teams in the league that year. Bad games happen, it's not the end of the world, I'm more concerned about our consistent inability to rebound and protect leads than one bad afternoon game against an opponent they didn't take seriously.

One game? A very unique perspective for losing the forest for the trees.

How about considering more than 1 game? How about the Celtics having a losing record since Christmas? Does that mean anything? They once were 25 - 5 and now are 36 - 21. I'll do the math, that's 11 - 16 over that span, and they are getting uglier by the game. This isn't a team that's just missing Pierce, this is a team that's lost its Mojo, its spirit. Wear those green glasses if you wish, because you will need them over the remaining 25 games.

If they went 13 -12 which is a better percentage than their record since Christmas, that would leave them at 49 - 33 which isn't horrible by itself if it were a young team on the rise, but this is a veteran team expected to challenge for a championship, a team the won 67 and 62 games respectively over the last two seasons. Seems like a dramatic drop off to me, but maybe you don't share this view, and that's fine because you'll probably be a lot happier when they're one and done in the playoffs than I will be.

[Spleen]

Yes, I agree that winning 50+ games is not too shabby, but considering how high expectations were (i.e. almost certain to win the championship), it is a big letdown. You've probably seen that clip of Gary Tanguay saying, "They could win 72 games!" I'm surprised they keep playing that as part of their intro and ads, considering how overblown it sounds now, but that was the feeling at the start of the season. It seemed like essentially the same team as 2 years ago, but with the additions of Sheed and Daniels considered better than the loss of Posey and Powe. ANd all the injuries were supposed to be over. Go figure.

It is a big letdown because with Wallace and Daniels the thought was this was going to be a bench that could rival many teams' starting lineup. The real disappointment has been Rasheed who appears to be out there on cruise control most nights and gets his 10 points without breaking a sweat or risking a bruise by hiding out along the perimeter. Ever notice that despite him being on the perimeter and missing most of his shots, he is often the last guy back down the court. What is he doing? Stopping for some Starbucks? Daniels has been OK, but it is hard to judge him because he's been out for a long time which is a familiar pattern with him. Had we had others who could have stepped up rather than having thumb surgery like big belly, maybe his absence wouldn't have been as noticeable. The grand plan was for Sheed to be able to spell Kevin and Perk and that he'd play well inside and we would hardly notice the difference, instead we have to wait for the camera to pan out to the three point line to even get a glimpse of him. Net result is zero inside presence when the first unit is resting. BB gives some help in the paint and at least isn't afraid of getting a little sweat on himself.

It doesn't make me happy to see the team going down the tubes, but I can't sit here with green tinted lens when I am getting hit by debris from the sky actually falling. Remember, Chicken Little wasn't paranoid, they actually were after him.

[Bogg]

One game? A very unique perspective for losing the forest for the trees.

How about considering more than 1 game? How about the Celtics having a losing record since Christmas? Does that mean anything? They once were 25 - 5 and now are 36 - 21. I'll do the math, that's 11 - 16 over that span, and they are getting uglier by the game. This isn't a team that's just missing Pierce, this is a team that's lost its Mojo, its spirit. Wear those green glasses if you wish, because you will need them over the remaining 25 games.

If they went 13 -12 which is a better percentage than their record since Christmas, that would leave them at 49 - 33 which isn't horrible by itself if it were a young team on the rise, but this is a veteran team expected to challenge for a championship, a team the won 67 and 62 games respectively over the last two seasons. Seems like a dramatic drop off to me, but maybe you don't share this view, and that's fine because you'll probably be a lot happier when they're one and done in the playoffs than I will be.


You don't seem to be getting what I'm saying. The Nets game doesn't really mean much of anything, the real indicator of where the Celtics stand was going 2-7(and counting) against the three other top teams in the east. You can't author a post about how Celtic Pride died the day we lost to the Nets and that the franchise has reached a new low and interpret anyone with an opposing viewpoint as drinking the kool-aide or wearing green tinted glasses. I stand by my original comments, one game doesn't mean much of anything and the franchise has been through far worse than losing an afternoon game they clearly didn't take seriously.

Now, if you want to discuss how the season as a whole has been a disappointment and that we're unlikely to do anything significant in the playoffs then we can do that. However, your original post was a melodramatic rant blowing one loss wildly out of proportion. They're an above-average team that isn't living up to preseason expectations and is highly unlikely to win a title, one sloppy game doesn't hold a candle to Bias and Reggie Lewis dying, the general ineptitude of the mid-to-late nineties, or the eighteen-game losing streak and shameless and acknowledged tanking of the 06-07 season.

[Spleen]

You don't seem to be getting what I'm saying. The Nets game doesn't really mean much of anything, the real indicator of where the Celtics stand was going 2-7(and counting) against the three other top teams in the east. You can't author a post about how Celtic Pride died the day we lost to the Nets and that the franchise has reached a new low and interpret anyone with an opposing viewpoint as drinking the kool-aide or wearing green tinted glasses. I stand by my original comments, one game doesn't mean much of anything and the franchise has been through far worse than losing an afternoon game they clearly didn't take seriously.

Now, if you want to discuss how the season as a whole has been a disappointment and that we're unlikely to do anything significant in the playoffs then we can do that. However, your original post was a melodramatic rant blowing one loss wildly out of proportion. They're an above-average team that isn't living up to preseason expectations and is highly unlikely to win a title, one sloppy game doesn't hold a candle to Bias and Reggie Lewis dying, the general ineptitude of the mid-to-late nineties, or the eighteen-game losing streak and shameless and acknowledged tanking of the 06-07 season.

It is the lack of intestinal fortitude and pride that has led in part to their decline, and Saturday was the day their pride leaned over and expired. If they were an above average team, then when exactly are they about to demonstrate this? You have misinterpreted "a new low" to mean the lowest low ever in anything, anytime, anywhere. That is not what was said at all, try this on for size: the loss to the Nets was the culmination of a disintegration of the teams' play that brought them to that point, hence the new low. The Nets game was a gutless effort by a group that no longer appears to have any pride in what they are doing. They've been playing like crap since Christmas in case you hadn't noticed. Actually I do not hold the belief that they have hit the lowest of the lows, just that this is the lowest yet, there are still 25 more games to play.

[Celtics17]

The reports of the death of Celtic Pride have been greatly exaggerated.

[Spleen]

I hope that turns out to be the case, but as of now it is suffering from rigormortis.

[Bogg]

Alright, well, if you want to limit it to being a new low for this core then sure, it was a particularly bad showing. That being said, I still take issue with your claim that one game killed a half-century of a winning tradition and broke the spirits of all past, current, and future Celtics in a total and irreversible manner. Also, in regards to the "in case you haven't noticed" comment, yes I have, which is why I wasn't particularly shocked by the Nets game and didn't throw a fit over it.

[bballee]

I'm not ready to declare the Celtic Pride dead yet . . . not quite. I posted the below on "another" board but it seems to fit this thread perfectly. Sadly it drew a series of critical/not-critical game comments. Rather missed the point. Miss you guys.

Time To Put Up or Shut Up

This game following the Nets debacle is meaningless but how the Celtics respond to their woodshed arse-whipping is critical. There is no single "cause" for the lackluster (perhaps too kind a word) play of the past two months. Certainly the injuries have sapped firepower and continuity. Yes the full cast has yet to put in a full week, much less an entire week at full strength. Flu has made the rounds, old joints are creaking through the winter, and the appetites have been slaked by the 2008 title. True, it is usually harder to stay on top than it is to break through. It seems obvious on most nights that this team runs a little slower and jumps a bit lower than the opposition.

Bottom line is that these are facts, but they are facts that should not keep a championship caliber team from playing winning ball. These proven warriors are capable of playing smarter, cage-ier ball against their younger opponents. Faster doesn't win the race when they have to travel a greater distance. Jumping higher doesn't get the rebound when they are blocked out of position, nor does it block the shot when ball movement has created a wide open look. These antiques need more breaks, and more often; but the supporting cast was assembled to allow this luxury. So far the players haven't employed their experience to play the crisp ball that would encourage their coach to extend their rests. A veteran team shouldn't play sloppy ball. These aren't foolish rookies out there who are throwing the ball away with such frightening frequency.

Is it really true that things have reached the stage when those veterans say the right things but can't, or won't, do them? Has Celtic pride perished along with personal pride? Can they rediscover the will to win, and to refuse to lose?

In an eighty-two game season this upcoming match against Detroit has little meaning. However, in the wake of the embarrassing loss to the woeful Nets, how our Green Warriors respond will speak volumes. This team is in danger of accepting their mortality and rolling over like a whipped dog whose spirit is broken. Wednesday night will either be the start of a turnaround, or the beginning of the fall off the cliff to oblivion. Can Do, or Has Been? The choice is pretty much in their hands.

[texascelticsfan]

From Basketbawful:

Celtics at Pistons: I can't stand cigarettes, but the odds that this Celtics team has me smoking unfiltereds by the end of the season have to be 50/50 at this point.

Couldnt have said it better. Anyone have any Lucky Strikes?

[UConn Celtics Fan]

The reports of the death of Celtic Pride have been greatly exaggerated.

This is correct. Celtic Pride will never go extinct. If it survived people chanting MVP for Kobe at the Garden, it will survive anything.

[Spleen]

If basketball may sometimes represent a caricature of life, then too may pride as well. In this nebulous realm, extinction does not preclude the concept of reincarnation for anything as intangible as Celtic Pride. True it is has been deeply downtrodden into the mud, and a week ago no pulse had been detected, but a resurrection of notable proportions though rare, is not entirely unheard of. Can a healing Pierce and a revitalization of Garnett be enough to springboard this revival? The arrival of Nate has brought a bit of life out there, and his three point shooting combined with his ball handling, defense, and ability to drive the lane are making an impact. Will this infusion of energy be contagious and capable of reviving an all but dead team?

Time will tell, and though it was good to see the starters spending a lot of time on the bench, whooping up on the Bobcats should not be construed as a defining moment, yet it can be a beginning. The next five games are against the 76'ers, Wizards, Bucks, Grizzlies, and Pacers which normally could be viewed as easy wins. It remains to be seen if the Celtics can build on what they may have started here and mow through these opponents with strong team defense and a well controlled offense. Given how they have played since Christmas this is not a certainty, but if there has been any resurrection of spirit, then now is the time to begin revealing it.

[Celtics17]

Wow, Spleen, that last post was marvellous!

Extinction and reincarnation in a nebulous realm. Good stuff!

[Spleen]

Just a moment of clarity I suppose.

[Spleen]

Time To Put Up or Shut Up .... The choice is pretty much in their hands.

Couldn't agree more. As you mentioned, telling it straight isn't always received well by posters. It doesn't make you a Celtic hater, or worse yet a Laker lover, to point out that the team has played such lackluster ball for the last two months that it is difficult to ignore and sit back and sing their praise with empty lungs. I always enjoyed your posts and even if I didn't always agree with everything, they always were well thought out and logical. You should come back and post more often here, this site needs another perspective.