TEN+ + Rondo = Trade chip

[OB- wan]

I hope other NBA types check out TEN+ and see how valuable Rondo is.

I agree that under any statistical analysis Rondo's numbers cannot be questioned.

In fact he does produce some of the sickest numbers you will ever find and honestly they are all in areas that I like. Hustle stats, assists, low t/o rate but he does not pass the eyeball test for me. I don't know why he unnerves me so but he really bugs me when I watch the Celtics.

Maybe it’s the way his shot looks so ugly and is so inconsistent. He has horrid form and he's just as likely to swish the shot dead-eye as he is to line-drive a brick at the front of the rim. I see Ben Wallace shoot like that...you can't accept that from your PG. Despite his solid over-all shooting %, teams do not guard him to shoot on the perimeter because they will take the chance that they will be in position for a thud off the front or back of the rim of his low % J. It's not like he can drive to the cup and make contact either because he is a terrible FT shooter so he can't be like a Wade or even Stuckey.

That drives me nuts because that puts a big hurdle in front of your offense to clear. You can't isolate mismatches and take advantage of the defense. Rondo's man will just come help and take away the advantage. Then Rondo gets the pass back and can't stick the J so the D can take their time rotating to where they need to be to stop his drive and/or other passing options he might have once he catches it. The fortunate thing for the C's the past 2 years is that the level of talent around him was so great it overcame this hurdle.

He also is a non-threat from 3 point range and as guys like Steve Kerr and D. Fisher can attest, that can be enough to win titles with the kind of talent Rondo has around him. So the team shouldn't have to spend the type of $$ on a PG as they had to commit to on Rondo because of the talent they have around the PG position.

But you say Rondo is worth the $$, just look at his stats, he performs at the level of one of the greatest of all time.

The stats might sell the players value to be high but for that kind of money they guy has to be able to carry other players that are not as good as he is to wins and I don't trust Rondo to do that.

For big bucks a guy has to be able to carry the team in the fourth quarter with whatever the team needs, scoring, play making, floor spacing i.e. hitting jump shots, defense, etc. and I don't see Rondo as that kind of player. I would not hand him the ball and say: "go win it".... you can't with that guy and you probably never will be able to. The PGs he is getting paid like CAN do those things.

Rondo is a guy that should be paid handsomely and be a Dennis Rodman type role player but he can't be counted on to win games when it counts and that is the problem with paying him as such because now you can't get enough talent around him to carry him and make it work. However because the NBA is a business and there is a lot of $$ involved these guys have agents and endorsement deals and things like that which net them huge sums of money for reasons other than their ability to win games for their employer.

Rondo was going to get the kind of money he got because you can sell an owner on his stats. It probably made sense for the Celtics to re-sign him rather than let him walk. The thing now is that they cannot build a team on his shoulders. They have to finish the job and move him for different pieces or go into luxury tax land and put some firepower around him.

[ThroughThatDoor]

There's a few reasons that you feel that Rondo isn't deserving of that rating and the eyeball test is the obvious biggest one. You aren't winning games if Rondo is your best player. His best games this year have all pretty much been losses especially recently when he's been playing a ton of minutes and asked to support more of the offense. Plus there's the knowledge we all have that once we get to the tougher playoff matchups, the other teams are going to sag off him defensively when he has the ball knowing he won't shoot and taking away his ability to drive and when he doesn't have the ball, we'll be playing four on five. The hope with him is that he progresses like Tony Parker did who was also a poor shooter early in his career. He still isn't a great shooter, but he's improved it enough that other teams need to respect him enough to defend to him. I honestly thought we'd see some sort of improvement in Rondo's shooting due to the story I read a few years ago about him and Ray being close. Every time he takes a jump shot, it looks like he's never done it before and he's just guessing at what he's supposed to do. Also his free throw percentage has dropped five and a half points from last season so far. He's just about to turn 24 so he still has plenty of time to improve, but as a fan I will agree that I was hoping for more development on the weaker parts of his game by now.

[texascelticsfan]

Frankly I am shocked that you are so down on Rondo. While his shooting is still sub-par, his overall game is off the charts. The only problem I have is when he becomes overconfident and loses games because of it. Like against Dallas where he thought he would run the floor with Kidd and it didnt end up happening.

Ray and Baby are serious problems.

[OB- wan]

I don't like being down on him but I don't like the arch his career and attitude are taking. I don't see good end results. I think if KG and PP were 3-4 years younger and Rondo had a longer incubation period before he's handed the reins I'd feel better but I don't see a good outcome for the weight of a team being placed on his shoulders any time soon.

He needs firepower around him for his team to win. He won't be able to lead a team and I think we can all see that. You need at least 2 super-star type players around him for it to work.

His jump shot alone makes me want to throw things at small children when I watch it.

[thuener]

Bitch about Rondo as much as you want. Fact is, he's not a shooting PG. He had the highest assists in the NBA by far, and he is lethal within the 12 foot shooting mark.

[ThroughThatDoor]

I love Rondo, but the problem is that when you have a perimeter player who cannot shoot at all it changes how defenses can play against you. Jason Kidd isn't a great shooter, but he can hit an open three so it forces his defender to stay in his vicinity. Rondo is zero threat to score away from the basket so if the ball isn't in his hands, he's kind of a non factor on offense and allows the other team to drop another defender into the paint.

[nighthob]

Bitch about Rondo as much as you want... he is lethal within the 12 foot shooting mark.

Not to the opponents he isn't.

[richard]

The only way I trade Rondo is by getting OJ Mayo back. OJ Mayo is a beast can play three positions.

[Celtics17]

One of the most underrated parts of Rondo's game is how he gets himself to the rim for open layups when the ball is out of hands. The critics like to talk about how it's 4 on 5 when the ball is out of Rajon's hands, but if you forget about him off the ball, he knows how to kill you by cutting to the lane and getting the ball back in a position to make a play.

Also, the jump shot isn't as far off as some of you believe.

Thankfully for me, BillyNighthob, Ob-Wan, and Through That Door aren't running the Celtics. I feel pretty secure that Danny's not sending him anywhere while he's got him at the bargain basement rate of 11mil. per over the next five years.

[nighthob]

The problem is that the circus shots are designed to avoid the free throw line. Getting to the rim without drawing fouls and making free throws isn't terribly useful. Once Pierce is gone this is a 30-35 win team despite the "superstar" point guard until they move him and find better players.

[OB- wan]

Tommy praised Rondo in the Portland game after a put back. It was near the end of the game and it was a big bucket. KG took a mid-range J and it clanked off the rim. Rondo streaked in and tipped it in.

What goes unnoticed is that the reason KG had to take the shot is that Rondo passed it out of the paint to him because he knew he couldn't hit a jump shot from just inside of the FT line.

These are the types of plays that Rondo's reputation has been built on. KG shouldn't have been even taking the shot. Rondo should have popped it from the paint where he caught it but he can't take that shot. He passes it out to have a superior player take a harder shot and he either gets an assist or on that particular play he got a rebound and 2 points.

Rondo gets assists and sometimes rebounds because he defers to super stars every night. He's not making as many easy plays as you would think a guy that gets 9 assists a night would make.

[Valencia]

Dennis Johnson was a terrible three point shooter.

Bob Cousy was all his career under 39% in field goals percentage.

KC Jones had 38% in Field Goals in his career and 64% in free throws. Even a season had 54% in free throws.


All of them were the Starter Point Guard in Boston Celtics teams that won the NBA Championship.
All of them have Champions Ring in their fingers.
Same as Rondo.

Together, they have 18 NBA Champion Rings as STARTER POINT GUARD.

Well, maybe, you prefer trade Rondo for a point guard like Dana Barros, Brent Price, Scott Skiles or even Mark Price. Their D was not much harder than my Grandmother's D, and they haven't any ring but... THEY ARE GREAT SHOOTERS!

[ThroughThatDoor]

Very unfair comparisons. Bob Cousy played in an era of much lower shooting percentages. His .397 in 54-55 was 18th best in the league, only two players had shooting percentages about .450 and almost all of the players with better shooting percentages were centers and forwards with only his teammate Bill Sharman having a better shooting percentage for a player listed solely as a guard. KC Jones was a poor offensive player who is only in the hall of fame because he was on those great Celtics teams. DJ played in an era where the three point shot really wasn't used like it is today (he averaged one attempt every two games and my guess was a lot of them were with the shot clock running down) and let's not forget that Larry Legend shot less than .300 for four seasons in a row from 80-84. Plus he was clutch and he was going to hit the shot when it was needed and at the very least, he was never afraid to take that shot.

I'm not saying they should trade away Rondo. His contract is fair and isn't going to be a burden on the franchise like the contract for Sheed's corps. He's just not going to be the best player on a good team, he can be on an individual night, but you can't count on him to do it for an extended period of time.

[nighthob]

Dennis Johnson was a terrible three point shooter.

Bob Cousy was all his career under 39% in field goals percentage.

KC Jones had 38% in Field Goals in his career and 64% in free throws. Even a season had 54% in free throws.


All of them were the Starter Point Guard in Boston Celtics teams that won the NBA Championship.
All of them have Champions Ring in their fingers.
Same as Rondo.

Together, they have 18 NBA Champion Rings as STARTER POINT GUARD.


The 60s are over there, about four decades back and to your right. I think the 80's are a couple of rows over.


Well, maybe, you prefer trade Rondo for a point guard like Dana Barros, Brent Price, Scott Skiles or even Mark Price. Their D was not much harder than my Grandmother's D, and they haven't any ring but... THEY ARE GREAT SHOOTERS!

This is a false dichotomy.

[Celtics17]

Ob-Wan,

On the play that you refer to, Garnett was open on the perimeter because his man came over to help on Rondo. Rajon found Kevin who, unfortunately, missed the shot. However, with the defense already scrambling to get to guys, nobody got a body on Rondo, who did the right thing by going to the rim and getting the tip.

There was nothing wrong with his play on that one.

[CaptChris]

Who is the WORST Free Throw Shooter of the NBA Starting Point Guards? Rajon Rondo!

Only TJ Ford and Rodney Stuckey shoot the "3" WORSE than Rondo among all the starting PG's in the NBA.

Rondo has Great Speed. Good Passer. Good ball-handler. Good Rebounder. Steals the ball. Get to the hole. Great in open court. Some say a Good Defender.

His inability to stay in front of his man is showing against the bigger, stronger PG's. He got torched in the last 4 games. Especially against Andre Miller, and Rodney Stuckey. It is now a concer of the Celtics.

Point of emphasis has emerged
Opposing guards posing big problem

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2010/01/25/opposing_point_guards_present_problem_for_celtics/

Today's Boston Globe.

We WON with him. Can we WIN with anouther PG?

[Valencia]

The main point of the article is that THE OTHER GUYS IN THE COURT didn't get any help to Rondo when he was defending these bigger point guards. Doc thinks the TEAM is not doing the job: sometimes Rondo can take advantage of being faster than the other team' point guard, and sometimes he will need some help from his TEAMmates; and in last 4 games when that help was needed, it didn't come. The Rondo's size is not Rondo's fault... he has some advantages from it (quicker, faster...) and some problems (about defending bigger guys)
The team should take advantage of his skills, and help him in his weakness. Same as all other guys in the TEAM.

[CaptChris]

The article is a SPIN to cover Rondo's poor "D". He has trouble staying in front of his man. He trys to cheat for the steals, and gets caught leaning. That's on HIM. He let's the guy get by him. This causes problems for Perk and whoever trys to help. If he stays in front of the man, they have to get rid of the ball, or shoot over him. .

When he palys better "D", we have an easier time winning the game.

[jcpry]

I think the case against Rondo is being a bit overstated here. Firstly each player has strengths and weaknesses and it is up to the coaches to look at the tape and find ways to minimise the damage and maximise opportunties. It isnt one-on-one they are playing. Secondly is the idea not to take advantage of Rondo's development into his prime and find complimentary pieces to take Ray Allens spot and then PP and KG as they move into the twilights of their careers. I am certain there would be considerable attraction to playing in a roster with Rondo, PP, KG and Perk that would eable the C's to move forward.

[CaptChris]

You are right that every player has strengths and weaknesses. Many of the strengths are individual and others are TEAM strengths. Same with the weaknesses. Some guys are very good in one-on-one "D", others are very good on TEAM "D". Some guys can get their own shots, others need to be set up for a shot. Coaches try to blend all these things to make a successful TEAM.

Ray -- PP -- KG are excellent Foul Shooters hitting between 83 -- 90%! Perk and Rondo are terrible -- hitting 59%. Doc and his coaches can't change that individual skill. Perk plays very good TEAM "D", helps out all the other guys. Not so good one-on-one against a guy with shooting range. So they try to keep Perk in the TEAM situation. Rondo is great on steals -- Best in the league. Problem is that he gets beat by his man when he overplays for the steals. Can the coaches make him aware of this problem and get him to correct it? Will he accept the correction? Perfect example! Rasheed is very good down on the blocks. Tough to stop. Yet, he refuses to play down there with any consistancy. He wants to play outside the "3" point Line. He refuses the coaching.

Celtics play good "D", but are a BAD rebounding TEAM. Coaches want them to get back on "D" , so we are a terrible "O" rebounding TEAM. Coaches want the "extra pass" -- we are a very good team with the Assists when we do it. Doc is trying to blend all the + 's and -- 's to be a winning team.

Fans seem to think their "Hero" can do no Wrong. Or the guy they like can't do anything Right. They all have + 's and -- 's!

[RAH]

The problem is that the circus shots are designed to avoid the free throw line. Getting to the rim without drawing fouls and making free throws isn't terribly useful.
I know what you mean, but I think you are overstating this. Getting to the rim without drawing fouls is worth TWO POINTS, right? It's just not worth 3 (and saddling the other team with another foul, etc). I'd argue that for a player with Rondo's physique, it is probably better to avoid fouls and stay healthy.

[nighthob]

No. It isn't worth two points (that's only true of a player shooting 1.000). It's inherently less efficient than drawing contact and fouls. Those fouls get opposing bigs in foul trouble, opponents in the penalty sooner, etc.. It's vital to be drawing fouls down there. If we're saying that he can't be drawing fouls, then it's better to find someone that can.

[Celtics17]

No. It isn't worth two points (that's only true of a player shooting 1.000). It's inherently less efficient than drawing contact and fouls. Those fouls get opposing bigs in foul trouble, opponents in the penalty sooner, etc.. It's vital to be drawing fouls down there. If we're saying that he can't be drawing fouls, then it's better to find someone that can.

Unfortunately, I've never seen any stats for how many fouls a player draws off passes that result in a teammate getting to the line. My guess is that Rondo would be right at the top of the league in that category, though.

Yes, Rondo's achilles heel is clearly his free throw shooting, but the kid does so many things well that he more than makes up for it. And, I'm still confident that he will eventually bring that up to at least the mid seventies, and when he does, he'll improve from being a top 25 player to a top 15 or even top 10 one.

[texascelticsfan]

I think there is definitely a middle ground on Rondo, I dont like that defenses play off of him, but I don't think thats solely because of Rondo. Actually I agree with Alex, that Ray is more of the problem in that he needs the ball in his hands, which creates the 4 on 5 issue with Rondo and also leaves Pierce standing around watching on the perimeter, neither of which are acceptable.

As much as Ob wants to complain about his "attitude", Rondo has shown himself to be a lot more accountable for his actions than Ray, whom still see's himself as Ray Allen of 3 years ago. Much like Michael Finley on the Spurs, Ray just is not what he used to be and needs to start accepting a new role as he is HURTING the team. Both Perk and Rondo recognized they got burned badly and refocused their energies for the clippers a stellar example of responding to criticism. I also think Doc is a heck of a lot tougher on Rondo than any other player on the floor, a good thing by the way, and I dont think Ray would handle the criticism in the manner Rondo has.

Currently Rondo is bringing 8.4 Wins Produced (berri stats), which is more than any other player on the C's. Ray (2.9), Baby (0.1) and Sheeds (0.3) numbers as far as wins produced for half the season are miserable, particularly Ray as he played every game and was not adjusting to a new system.

[hurdler]

I think there is definitely a middle ground on Rondo, I dont like that defenses play off of him, but I don't think thats solely because of Rondo. Actually I agree with Alex, that Ray is more of the problem in that he needs the ball in his hands, which creates the 4 on 5 issue with Rondo and also leaves Pierce standing around watching on the perimeter, neither of which are acceptable.

As much as Ob wants to complain about his "attitude", Rondo has shown himself to be a lot more accountable for his actions than Ray, whom still see's himself as Ray Allen of 3 years ago. Much like Michael Finley on the Spurs, Ray just is not what he used to be and needs to start accepting a new role as he is HURTING the team.

It's obvious to see the flaw in pairing Rondo with a guard who can't shoot like tony giddens-walker. The mismatch with Ray is much more subtle. While Ray is doing the screen shuffle, Rondo must not drive/dish because he has to wait for the Ray option. And once ray does get it, Rondo is excluded from the offense for a while because ray only passes to his friends. So that is not a great pairing either, especially for roughly 24-30mpg. What if Chris Paul had to play second fiddle to peja and wait for him to come open? I'm not saying R2 is CP3 (almost a star wars reference), I just think that the value of ray's offensive game in correlation to Rondo's poor shooting is overblown. It's an advantage over TA on offense, but does it balance out the defensive difference between the allens?

I'd love to see what a healthy, in-shape MD would do for this team.

[CaptChris]

The mismatch with Ray is much more subtle. While Ray is doing the screen shuffle, Rondo must not drive/dish because he has to wait for the Ray option. And once ray does get it, Rondo is excluded from the offense for a while because ray only passes to his friends.

Derrick Rose played 2nd fiddle to Ben Gordon! Chauncy Billups played 2nd fiddle to Rip Hamilton! I got it. OOPS!

Tony Allen -- I Love You!!!

[hurdler]

Derrick Rose played 2nd fiddle to Ben Gordon! Chauncy Billups played 2nd fiddle to Rip Hamilton! I got it. OOPS!

Tony Allen -- I Love You!!!

How has that worked out for Rose/Gordon and Billups/Hamilton? One dimensional scorers still bring only one skill to the TEAM. Ray has a nice resume and a great career, but in 2010 and beyond he is a role player, just like perk. Separate rondo and ray and guess who gets exposed.

[nighthob]

How has that worked out for Rose/Gordon and Billups/Hamilton? One dimensional scorers still bring only one skill to the TEAM. Ray has a nice resume and a great career, but in 2010 and beyond he is a role player, just like perk. Separate rondo and ray and guess who gets exposed.

Replace Pierce and Garnett with David West & Peja Stojakovic and how many wins do you think Boston has now? 15? 20?

[hurdler]

Replace Pierce and Garnett with David West & Peja Stojakovic and how many wins do you think Boston has now? 15? 20?

Any team forced to start Ray and Peja would be around 15 wins at midseason. Thanks for emphasizing my point about one-dimensional shooters. I'd be glad to have West and his contract even though he's a punk.

[nighthob]

Any team forced to start Ray and Peja would be around 15 wins at midseason. Thanks for emphasizing my point about one-dimensional shooters. I'd be glad to have West and his contract even though he's a punk.

Let's try this another way, swap out Chris Paul for Rajon Rondo, how many wins do the Hornets have, 10? 15?

[texascelticsfan]

But your basically pairing him with equivalent problems. Put Mike Miller or Rasual Butler in Ray place and we'd probably see more wins.

[Valencia]

Rajon Rondo is an All-Star of the League.

That is a fact.