Ray Allen - Sixth Man?

[texascelticsfan]

http://www.nba.com/media/manutrophy_300_080421.jpg
Tony's strong play of late has me reconsidering a lot of things, but the one thing it has me looking at the most is which Allen should be starting.

I honestly think switching Ray to Sixth man could be a huge benefit to the team on several facets.

Tony is a better defender and will more consistently play on the opponents best scoring wing. While Tony does not provide the same shooting aspect that Ray does, it allows Paul/KG to play on the perimeter easier.

Ray can take a Manu-like role and bring a TON of energy and scoring off the bench right when we need it. He also will be facing a Bench player for larger amounts of time, allowing him to be even more effective on Offense. He also is a better fit with Sheed, House and Daniels.

I have not looked too closely at +/- numbers when either is on the floor nor the stats of each when paired with Bench/Starters, but the more I look at Manu's effectiveness off the Bench, the more I think it could work.

Points in the Paint might be an issue for the Bench, but hopefully a healthy Daniels will resolve that.

Not too mention, the Sixth Man has strong Celtic Roots...
Frank Ramsey (the originator)
John Havlichek
Kevin McHale
Bill Walton

Thoughts? Any stats that might back me up? (kissmyarse?)

[OB- wan]

The key would be getting Ray to buy in. If he pouts it won't work.

I see what you are saying though.

[hurdler]

The key would be who the 5th starter is. Ray, TA, Daniels, Giddens, Walker, and House are free agents after this season. With this roster Doc will never NOT start ray. With the investment in Rondo, I think a good match would be a defender who could hit an open jumpshot. Posey did that as SF; Cle has been trying to make west/parker work with a borderline all-star PG; Dahntay Jones/Raja Bells are recent examples also. Other top PG duos are Nash/richardson (bell) with role SF, CP3/thornton, williams/brewer.

With Ray's contract many (including me) have advocated getting a $7-10 million SG + expiring contract. Otherwise we have the MLE available to make a change, or keep ray at whatever his agent can get for him, or both (I think we can do that under the CBA). In the future (even now) ray can't be THE SG, just a SG. Maybe the answer is the one we have had and that is Daniels. I hope he sparks a big turn around this year, and he is a starter quality SG that could be a great fit if healthy.

[apc]

I like the idea of Ray coming off the bench, the problem is, assuming Tony will take his place, is too crowded paint, and only one player (Pierce) who can shoot the 3.

[texascelticsfan]

KG has been playing out of the paint the majority of the time recently and TA plays off of Rondo's skills a lot better than running 30 screens for Ray does. Daniels handle makes him key for the Bench, his rebounding and handle will be big when he gets back.

The problem is just like OB said, Ray would never accept the "insult".

[CaptChris]

I was waiting for this one. Figured it would have come up a week ago. Tony has a flash of stability, and we get: he is the answer.

Tony does have skills. He also has a track record of a flash, and a fade. Either from injury or mental slips. He played long minutes the last 2 games in Dec. & the 1st 2 games in Jan.. He totaled 15 /O's in those 4 games. He has 43 T/O's & 44 Assists in 26 games. He is shooting 63% from the foul line after making 10 of his last 10. He has (0) "3" 's, so he doesn't spread the floor at all. So the question is which Tony do you get with long minutes?

Ray should play less minutes. Tony should play more. Doc will have to figure out how to do it.

[Celtics17]

Captain,

Your concerns are all valid, but the truth is that lately Tony Allen has provided this team with a defensive spark that it was sorely lacking during a brutal stretch of this season.

This team was built on its defensive prowess. They won a championship and gave us consecutive 60+ win seasons off that defensive mentality. TA brings it. If a major trade is not going to hapen, then Doc needs to play TA significant minutes and turn Ray Allen into a part time scoring role player.

I like our chances of getting our swagger back so much better with Tony in there than without him.

[texascelticsfan]

This is not meant to be an indictment of Ray Allen, saying Tony is better than Ray, cause he's not. Tony is just a better fit with Paul/Rondo/KG.

Is it really the best use of two future hall of famers (Paul and KG) to be running 30 screens for Ray, even if he's not the #1-2 option of offense? I think you could utilize Paul and KG more while focusing on Ray's strengths when he comes off the bench.

A guy like Ginobli gets it. He doesn't need to start to feel vindicated about himself, he needs to win games. He has stated that he hopes he never starts another game. Ask anybody who's a Spurs fan if they think Mason Jr or Keith Bogans is better than Ginboli? Child please. Its not about Ray being better or worse, its about fitting with the players on the floor and giving the team the best chance to win.

Scoring off the bench is awful. Think Ray wouldnt provide that bolster of energy at the 5 minute mark? Wouldnt it be a LOT better to have Ray fresh at the end of Games not just in the 1st quarter

Capt, channel you inner Frank Ramsey/Red and remember what the Sixth Man is all about.

If anything it would be saying Ray would make our Bench a LOT better and Tony would not hurt our Starting lineup that bad.

[CaptChris]

Guess I will have to re-run the tapes, and count the 30 screens that Ray gets a night! Do you think that you are stretching the point?

I just watched Tony in the 1st half against Jersey. FANTASTIC "D"!

[hurdler]

When teams want to trade a player they often highlight them by playing them a lot more minutes. Doc should highlight Ray by benching him and playing him about 24 mins. GMs around the league know that Ray's done as a starter, we need to convince them that he can still score 12-15 pts in 24 mins instead of 14-16 pts in 38 mins.

[RAH]

Besides the "insult" factor about having Ray as 6th man, I think they are hoping he'll return to form as a starter. Consider that last season was one of his best seasons, stats-wise (shooting percentage, etc). He played better last year than the year they won the championship. I really disliked his play during the championship season and couldn't figure out why we kept winning with such a stiff as the 3rd leg of the "big 3." Then he plays well last year. Go figure.

Anyway, they've certainly given him ample opportunity to return to form and it doesn't seem to be happening, so I agree - 6th man, for sure. Then trade him (but what can you get??)